Questions About Pain

 Please post your questions and comments concerning your pain.

Dr. Marcus, I've recently come across some news about PRP and I was wondering if you wouldn't mind speculating on the use of PRP for the same kind of pain that you already successfully treat. Is it possible, or even feasible, to augment your current treatment approach with something like PRP. There seems to be a lot of hype about it in the news and I'm wondering if it is just that, hype.

Response from Dr. Marcus: There may be something to PRP but more research needs to be done. Any time a needle is inserted into a region of painful muscle/ligament/tendon a ceratin number of patients will report a decrease in pain. If muscles were assessed as a possible source of pain prior to the PRP and a controlled study was done with muscle treatment injections and aftercare, then we could at least have a head to head comparison of similar injection site approaches with two disparate expalanations for a positive effect. Claims for tendon regeneration are another matter and once again we need to see more research.

| Sep 10th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

From where does the pain originate? The major diagnosis (70-80%) of low back pain is "Non-specific" or "Idiopathic" ( most likely associated with sprains or strains of soft tissue). Therefore the most likely source of pain would be soft tissue, such as muscles. We do not have agreement as to how muscles should be examined. As I mentioned in a previous post (4/29/09), pressure to an area is not an accurate means to identify a muscle thought to be the cause of pain. In addition there is no agreed method as to how one should inject muscles that are identified as the source of pain. i.e. containing trigger points. Diagnosing the source of pain through the use of imaging such as x-ray, MRI or CT is confusing beacause the majority of patients having these studies will show some pathology that may have nothing to do with their pain. For example, 40% of patients with no pain in their back have been found on MRI to have herniated discs and 70% to have degenerated discs. Therefore just the presence of an abnormality does not tell you if that is the cause.

So the short answer is, yes pain can come from discs and joints but much less so than from muscles. It does appear that fascia is an important aspect of clinical pain and this will be an important area of future investigaton.

The Muscle Pain Detection Device (MPDD) is a step toward clarifying a specific muscular source of  pain. The instrument can make one muscle move at a time recreating what happens in real life when a person with painful muslces experiences an increase in pain. If the stimulated muscle is painful and the surrounding muscles are not then that muscle is thought to be the one causing the pain in that region. We don't identify trigger points but call the painful muscles so identified as having Muscle Pain Amenable to Injection since the trigger point is only one area where the pain originates. With our approach the muscle-tendon and bone-tendon attachments, the areas with the greatest number of muscle pain receptors, are thoroughly injected along with the muscle belly. We call these injections Muscle-Tendon  Injections (MTIs) rather than Trigger Point Injections (TPIs).

There is no agreement about the type of injection that is most effective, i.e. size of the needle, what is injected, the area to be injected (muscle belly or the attachments to tendon and bone) or the aftercare. The muscle injections that are given, from our experience , must be painful if they are  to be effective. Causing pain signifies that you are in the area where the pain originates. In order to minimize the discomfort of the injections we first provide  intravenous pain medicaton and a local anesthetic in the skin over the muscle to be injected. We believe that it is important to have 3 days of physical therapy which includes muscle stimulation to produce passive contraction in the injected muscle and an exercise program that was developed at the Columbia University Shool of Medicine in the 1960s and successfully given to 300,000 particiapnts at the YMCA with an 80% success rate in reducing or eliminating back pain associated with muscle deficiency (weaknes and/or stiffness) which  frequently acompany muscles that require injections.

Dr. Norman Marcus | May 3rd, 2009 at 1:18 pm

As lots of people, I have tried everything short of surgery to relieve my constant low back pain for the last 8 years. TPI's, ESI's, facet/SI injections, prolotherapy, chiropractors, PT's, osteo/neueosurgeons, pain management, acupuncture, etc.  My pain level is normally 7-8 on a normal day & varies for no apparent reason.  I've been told by several specialists that non-specific low back pain that doesn't radiate to the legs can either originate in the disk, the facet, or the SI joint.  I've also read alot about muscle imbalances & purchased a system to identify, address, and resolve these imbalances.  I know what normal muscle pain feels like (strains, pulls, etc) since I've been very athletic for most of my life.  But the exercises for my imbalances haven't helped.

How can someone differentiate (other than process of elimination) between pain originating from muscles, joints, or disks?

 

Dr. Marcus responds: The MPDD will determine if muscles are a source of your pain. It may not be the only source but if specific muscles are identified as being painful in a region of the body, they can be treated and some or all of your pain may be relieved. There are treatments for the other causes of your pain such as joints and discs and we address them as well.

namdoog55 | May 2nd, 2009 at 4:37 pm

 

Before I answer the question I want to address the injections that we provide. The injections that I have given to you, although similar to trigger point injections, are called Muscle Tendon Injections. The reason we have a different name is because the majority of nerve receptors for pain in the muscle are not in the muscle belly but are mostly in the region where the muscle attaches to the tendon and the tendon attaches to the bone. Our injections address all the areas where pain originates and that is why they are more effective than trigger point injections or prolotherapy.

In addition, the success of our treatment is very much a function of the instrument we use to identify a painful muscle, the MPDD, which was shown in a recent study at NYU School of Medicine to be more effective than manual pressure in finding a specific muscle that should receive injections.
 
Now for the answer to your question; When a muscle is injected, it is usually in the region of which you complain the most. If the pain is relieved, a less painful muscle region may now become apparent. This mechanism is sometimes described as Diffuse Noxious Inhibitory Control (DNIC), meaning that when you feel pain in one place it suppresses pain in other areas. Sometimes the reverse happens, namely when you have pain in one region in causes pain in another area. More about that at another time.      Dr. Norman Marcus
 

 

 

 

Dr. Norman Marcus | Apr 29th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

Dear Dr. Marcus,

I have benefited greatly from trigger point injections to address muscle pain over the last 10 years. In many cases, the pain is simply eliminated in the muscle that has been injected. As a chronic pain patient, I don't know what I would do if this treatment was not available to me. My question is the following: Why is it that on some occasions my pain in the muscle injected will "release" but I begin to feel discomfort in a muscle site that didn't initially hurt? Does muscle pain travel to another site because I feel relief in one particular area? I really would appreciate your answer to this question.

Sincerely,

hayes043

hayes043 | Apr 28th, 2009 at 7:02 am

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